Examine breaks through disguises in polymorph

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Dreams
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Examine breaks through disguises in polymorph

Post by Dreams » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:37 pm

As title, you couldn't break disguises whilst someone was in polymorph, now you can.

Dr_Hazard89
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Re: Examine breaks through disguises in polymorph

Post by Dr_Hazard89 » Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:02 am

Hope this is fixed. There's no way you can recognise someone through a polymorph spell, that's just plain old metagaming.
Characters: Xun'sali (ACTIVE), Tianae Tymeaneldth (Rolled), Sylali (Rolled), Magpie (Rolled), Ker'uanna Tymeaneldth (Rolled), Lepota Poklona (Rolled), Andariel Bloodletter (Shelved), Tahl'tril Cyredrretyn (Rolled), L'omithiel (Shelved).

Gods_Kill_People
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Re: Examine breaks through disguises in polymorph

Post by Gods_Kill_People » Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:27 am

While you cannot recognize the person, If your character has successfully broken a disguise, you can become suspicious of the polymorphed creature.

Nitro
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Re: Examine breaks through disguises in polymorph

Post by Nitro » Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:33 am

Gods_Kill_People wrote:While you cannot recognize the person, If your character has successfully broken a disguise, you can become suspicious of the polymorphed creature.
What gives you that impression? The text says you cannot recognize anything about them when you 'break' the disguise of a polymorphed creature.

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Lorkas
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Re: Examine breaks through disguises in polymorph

Post by Lorkas » Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:49 am

It doesn't even take a spot check to be suspicious of a glowing magical bat.

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Re: Examine breaks through disguises in polymorph

Post by Gods_Kill_People » Wed Nov 08, 2017 10:07 am

Sent: 12 Oct 2017 16:58
From: DM Spyre
To: Gods_Kill_People

If your character has successfully broken a disguise, you can become suspicious of the polymorphed creature.

Any other parts of that letter have been cut out as its personal....but that IS the DM stance.

Nitro
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Re: Examine breaks through disguises in polymorph

Post by Nitro » Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:14 pm

Well, that's a bit different from what I got told when I asked about the matter on the DM channel a month or so back:
https://imgur.com/a/oBjZ6

Gods_Kill_People
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Re: Examine breaks through disguises in polymorph

Post by Gods_Kill_People » Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:23 pm

Mine was a team decision in October, perhaps Wish wasn't up to date with the decision, heres the PM I got from Spyre with the decision from the Team, the name of the player at the time is of course blacked out for their sake.

https://imgur.com/a/EndNL

Nitro
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Re: Examine breaks through disguises in polymorph

Post by Nitro » Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:32 pm

Well, that's definitely good to know then.

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Dreschor
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Re: Examine breaks through disguises in polymorph

Post by Dreschor » Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:23 pm

When ever Fibbs sees a very composed and magically warded bat, he can, I have not even examine it.

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Re: Examine breaks through disguises in polymorph

Post by yellowcateyes » Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:39 pm

This is an unintentional effect of the right-click examine changes. A fix has been submitted so that disguise-breaking will still occur, but the polymorphed character's exact name and identity will remain hidden. Instead, the onlooker will get feedback about the creature being very likely a polymorphed individual.
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Dr_Hazard89
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Re: Examine breaks through disguises in polymorph

Post by Dr_Hazard89 » Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:36 pm

Shouldn't this tie into spellcraft or something and not spot? I don't like it. Not everyone who is polymorphed does it with their wards on. I don't see any way someone could have eyesight so amazing that they see through a transmutation spell.
Characters: Xun'sali (ACTIVE), Tianae Tymeaneldth (Rolled), Sylali (Rolled), Magpie (Rolled), Ker'uanna Tymeaneldth (Rolled), Lepota Poklona (Rolled), Andariel Bloodletter (Shelved), Tahl'tril Cyredrretyn (Rolled), L'omithiel (Shelved).

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Re: Examine breaks through disguises in polymorph

Post by rookie » Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:42 pm

Think it is more that they'd notice the polymorphed target not acting like a normal elemental/bat/troll would. Disguising has to do with more than just looking and sounding like something, but acting like it too.

Spot is both sort of Spot and Sense Motive for Arelith. In PnP you'd get a Sense Motive check if someone was charmed/dominated to know something was up with their behavior as well.

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Re: Examine breaks through disguises in polymorph

Post by Dr_Hazard89 » Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:04 am

rookie wrote:Think it is more that they'd notice the polymorphed target not acting like a normal elemental/bat/troll would. Disguising has to do with more than just looking and sounding like something, but acting like it too.

Spot is both sort of Spot and Sense Motive for Arelith. In PnP you'd get a Sense Motive check if someone was charmed/dominated to know something was up with their behavior as well.
I don't feel like it's fair for someone's spot check to be deciding whether or not my character is acting like the thing they're polymorphed as. I feel like that should be up to me and the RP. If I'm a talking glowing wolf, sure fine... But if I'm unwarded and behaving "normally" and the first thing someone says when they see me is "Hello. Neat spell!" .. That's awkward. How could they possibly know? Did I forget to polymorph my ears or something? What do I roll to counter their spot, perform/bluff? That's not even a class-skill for things that can poly.
Characters: Xun'sali (ACTIVE), Tianae Tymeaneldth (Rolled), Sylali (Rolled), Magpie (Rolled), Ker'uanna Tymeaneldth (Rolled), Lepota Poklona (Rolled), Andariel Bloodletter (Shelved), Tahl'tril Cyredrretyn (Rolled), L'omithiel (Shelved).

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Re: Examine breaks through disguises in polymorph

Post by Gods_Kill_People » Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:08 am

yes well, at the same time, as was my original argument with the DMs, such a power is VASTLY overpowered with no way to get around it. I like the ideal that if I can break your disguise there IS infact a way to tell, like maybe your coloring is off a touch, maybe you dont smell right, maybe its something the creature is doing?

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Re: Examine breaks through disguises in polymorph

Post by rookie » Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:28 am

Perform/Bluff, yeah. That's the way the D&D system was designed that Arelith is based upon though with opposed checks.

I've played my fair share of shapeshifters (whether arcane or divine) and even cross-classing it will cover the majority, if you dip for disc/tumble then you can go for bard and pump up Bluff/Perform too.

Instead of someone beating my disguise check I've personally found it way more likely for a player not to realize I was a disguised PC (I act like someone's pet and they didn't hit Tab) until they joined party, then I see they failed their Spot check but just ignore the result.

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Re: Examine breaks through disguises in polymorph

Post by Dr_Hazard89 » Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:43 am

That's a good point, there should be a way around it. I'm just not sure if it should be a spot check. If a powerful wizard or druid with max spellcraft told me they sensed it was a polymorph, I'd buy that. Seems less intrusive for them to sense the spell itself, rather than forcing a mistake on the character.

It also creates an awkward situation where characters who are masters of this kind of stuff, wizards, druid, transmuters, are also very likely to be the worst at detecting whether something is a transmutation spell or the real thing.

Perform/Bluff are not class skills for wizards and druids and stuff. They'd have to cross-class into a class that doesn't know about polymorph to be better at polymorphing. That seems even worse.
It's not like they're using costume and make-up to pretend to be something they're not, they're casting a spell that turns them into something else.
Characters: Xun'sali (ACTIVE), Tianae Tymeaneldth (Rolled), Sylali (Rolled), Magpie (Rolled), Ker'uanna Tymeaneldth (Rolled), Lepota Poklona (Rolled), Andariel Bloodletter (Shelved), Tahl'tril Cyredrretyn (Rolled), L'omithiel (Shelved).

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Re: Examine breaks through disguises in polymorph

Post by Dr_Hazard89 » Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:45 am

To be fair though I can imagine plenty of ways for a spotter to make this fun for both sides involved, I'm just worried it won't go that way. Don't mean to come across as too argumentative.
Characters: Xun'sali (ACTIVE), Tianae Tymeaneldth (Rolled), Sylali (Rolled), Magpie (Rolled), Ker'uanna Tymeaneldth (Rolled), Lepota Poklona (Rolled), Andariel Bloodletter (Shelved), Tahl'tril Cyredrretyn (Rolled), L'omithiel (Shelved).

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Re: Examine breaks through disguises in polymorph

Post by Gods_Kill_People » Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:52 am

Fairly, I have seen it played the other way too, where I broke the disguise and oocly asked them, okay I broke your disguise, what should I see....and got the..." you see a perfectly normal "*******" So sadly, it goes both ways, since people will go out of their way to force the rp their way too. So yes, the breaking a disguise is a good thing.

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Re: Examine breaks through disguises in polymorph

Post by Dr_Hazard89 » Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:55 am

Gods_Kill_People wrote:Fairly, I have seen it played the other way too, where I broke the disguise and oocly asked them, okay I broke your disguise, what should I see....and got the..." you see a perfectly normal "*******" So sadly, it goes both ways, since people will go out of their way to force the rp their way too. So yes, the breaking a disguise is a good thing.
I had typed a similar situation but deleted before posting. I think that's the best possible way to go about it. Asking the player "What do I see?" so it's up to them. I hope more people do it that way.
Characters: Xun'sali (ACTIVE), Tianae Tymeaneldth (Rolled), Sylali (Rolled), Magpie (Rolled), Ker'uanna Tymeaneldth (Rolled), Lepota Poklona (Rolled), Andariel Bloodletter (Shelved), Tahl'tril Cyredrretyn (Rolled), L'omithiel (Shelved).

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Re: Examine breaks through disguises in polymorph

Post by rookie » Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:58 am

They may be masters of changing into forms, but they're probably not going to act the same. A 30 INT wizard is going to have a hard time pretending to be a 6 INT troll. A LG wizard is going to have issues pretending to be a CE balor etc. Doing so well requires a bit of acting as they're having to make choices they'd never normally make to pull off the con.

And yeah, they'd need to multiclass into a class that is good at acting to be experts at it.

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Re: Examine breaks through disguises in polymorph

Post by Dr_Hazard89 » Thu Nov 09, 2017 1:06 am

rookie wrote:They may be masters of changing into forms, but they're probably not going to act the same. A 30 INT wizard is going to have a hard time pretending to be a 6 INT troll. A LG wizard is going to have issues pretending to be a CE balor etc. Doing so well requires a bit of acting as they're having to make choices they'd never normally make to pull off the con.

And yeah, they'd need to multiclass into a class that is good at acting to be experts at it.
In 3.5 it says that if you use shapechange to create a disguise you get +10 to disguise. Maybe that could be a thing for polymorphed characters.
Characters: Xun'sali (ACTIVE), Tianae Tymeaneldth (Rolled), Sylali (Rolled), Magpie (Rolled), Ker'uanna Tymeaneldth (Rolled), Lepota Poklona (Rolled), Andariel Bloodletter (Shelved), Tahl'tril Cyredrretyn (Rolled), L'omithiel (Shelved).

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Re: Examine breaks through disguises in polymorph

Post by Nitro » Thu Nov 09, 2017 2:04 am

The problem I see is that gear bonuses don't merge when shapeshifting, so someone shapeshifted is never going to be able to get as much bluff/perform as they could while unshifted. Which is a bit funky.

rookie
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Re: Examine breaks through disguises in polymorph

Post by rookie » Thu Nov 09, 2017 2:54 am

Dr_Hazard89 wrote: In 3.5 it says that if you use shapechange to create a disguise you get +10 to disguise. Maybe that could be a thing for polymorphed characters.
That would be cool if they added that in.

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Dreams
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Re: Examine breaks through disguises in polymorph

Post by Dreams » Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:31 am

Some questions about an example then:

e.g. I am a raven totem druid. I shapeshift into a raven, am otherwise unbuffed, disguise as 'Raven', and land in a tree nearby a group of people to eavesdrop on their conversation. Someone examines and passes their spot check vs my bluff skill because druids don't have bluff.

Should that person really be able to tell from all available information that the raven in the tree is not actually a raven? Would they have examined any other bird that landed in a tree and watched for common behaviours? Would they recognise what the common behaviours of any given species is vs the uncommon behaviours? Are they only examining the raven because it is a PC?

e.g. 2. I am a werewolf infected character, currently rampaging as a werewolf. I'm disguised as 'Werewolf'. Someone examines me and beats the check.

What extra information do they get about the werewolf? Clearly being disguised as a werewolf was more of a descriptor for the werewolf itself, whilst hiding the floating-name-identity of the infected person. Would you be able to tell who the person beneath was by beating this check, but with no other relevant information? WYSIWYG?

From those two examples, I would suggest that in some cases you really shouldn't be able to examine a polymorphed creature and gain more information about them. There's a reason it has been scripted to automatically fail the check to break a disguise.

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