Examine breaks through disguises in polymorph

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Gods_Kill_People
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Re: Examine breaks through disguises in polymorph

Post by Gods_Kill_People » Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:38 am

Example 1: Yes, perhaps in examining the raven, its acting strange, a little too focused on the conversation for a bird, the coloring and size seem off. Some might also play it as Ravens are a symbol of bad luck/death. So yes, there are ways to properly play it out.

Example 2: Werewolves are already obvious so its just pointing out the clearly obvious, its a person shifted, kill the beast to find out who they are after they shift back.

rookie
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Re: Examine breaks through disguises in polymorph

Post by rookie » Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:05 pm

Gods_Kill_People beat me to it. I'll just add that I realize that there is a stigma to cross-classing skills, but if you want to be better than terrible at something then invest the points into the skill, having some points is better than none as many people don't even bother to invest in spot at all.

Going for the "optimal" skills/classes for your build doesn't mean you can just hand-wave any deficiencies for convenience sake.

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Re: Examine breaks through disguises in polymorph

Post by DM Wish » Thu Nov 09, 2017 1:11 pm

GKP's Confusion
Gods_Kill_People wrote:Mine was a team decision in October, perhaps Wish wasn't up to date with the decision, heres the PM I got from Spyre with the decision from the Team, the name of the player at the time is of course blacked out for their sake.

https://imgur.com/a/EndNL
To clarify here due your misunderstanding on what I said, polymorphed character's mascarading as a different race who fail their disguise role will identify as a suspicious member of their chosen species. This means that the observer has noted some inconsistencies with the creature's movement (as outlined by Spyre); as a result the following interaction A might occur, however interaction B would not:
Interaction A wrote: *An adventurering rogue encounters a Fire Giant in the Red Dragon Isles, it blocks their path.*
Polymorphed Fire Giant: "Hold! You must give tribute to the great red one!"
Rogue: *Examines, and breaks the disguise and examine reveals the name "Jim McPolymorph".*
What they discover: They recognise that, oddly, compared to the other Fire Giant's this one appears to sway uncertainly as if unfamiliar with its own weight and it general mannerisms appear unlike those of the other Fire Giant's seen earlier.
Rogue: "I do not know what you are, but it seems to me that if the Fire Giants caught either of us we'd be in quite the bit of bother. Now how about you give up this charade and we discuss this like reasonable gentlemen?"
Interaction B wrote: *An adventurering rogue encounters a Fire Giant in the Red Dragon Isles, it blocks their path.*
Polymorphed Fire Giant: "Hold! You must give tribute to the great red one!"
Rogue: *Examines, and breaks the disguise and examine reveals the name "Jim McPolymorph".*
What they discover: They recognise that, oddly, compared to the other Fire Giant's this one appears to sway uncertainly as if unfamiliar with its own weight and it general mannerisms appear unlike those of the other Fire Giant's seen earlier.
Rogue: "... Jim McPolymorph, I knew it! Your one of a kind limp, lisp and lethargic attitude always set you apart from the masses of other people who potentially have any, or all, of those particular mannerisms!"
As if the case here:
You've chosen to blank out the character's name, denying the obvious visual cue for identifying them. That is what polymorph does, however the key difference is that mannerisms, and familiarity with the form are not passed on at the same level as a Fire Giant (as an example) who has lived its whole life as a Fire Giant.

Response to Nitro
Nitro wrote:Well, that's a bit different from what I got told when I asked about the matter on the DM channel a month or so back:
https://imgur.com/a/oBjZ6
As for your question Nitro, I was referring to the fact that you cannot garner someone's name or race through polymorphed disuise by a successful disguise breaking; nevertheless you can garner that something is off about the creature in question and, as transmutation magic is well know of, the suspicion that they are polymorphed (while not certain to be the cause) is one very possible guess.

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Re: Examine breaks through disguises in polymorph

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:13 pm

Dr_Hazard89 wrote:
rookie wrote:Think it is more that they'd notice the polymorphed target not acting like a normal elemental/bat/troll would. Disguising has to do with more than just looking and sounding like something, but acting like it too.

Spot is both sort of Spot and Sense Motive for Arelith. In PnP you'd get a Sense Motive check if someone was charmed/dominated to know something was up with their behavior as well.
I don't feel like it's fair for someone's spot check to be deciding whether or not my character is acting like the thing they're polymorphed as. I feel like that should be up to me and the RP. If I'm a talking glowing wolf, sure fine... But if I'm unwarded and behaving "normally" and the first thing someone says when they see me is "Hello. Neat spell!" .. That's awkward. How could they possibly know? Did I forget to polymorph my ears or something? What do I roll to counter their spot, perform/bluff? That's not even a class-skill for things that can poly.
Not just for the sake of being contentious, but if we're discussing "fair," it's not fair that casting a polymorph spell makes it impossible to break your disguise- and I say that even though most of my characters can benefit from it.

In PnP, polymorphing spells give you a bonus to disguise to remain undetected. Your disguise can still be broken- because having an unbeatable disguise wouldn't be fair. Furthermore, if your disguise is only magical in nature (say a polymorph spell) and someone is using true seeing, they pierce it automatically.
Special

Magic that alters your form, such as alter self, disguise self, polymorph, or shapechange, grants you a +10 bonus on Disguise checks (see the individual spell descriptions). You must succeed on a Disguise check with a +10 bonus to duplicate the appearance of a specific individual using the veil spell. Divination magic that allows people to see through illusions (such as true seeing) does not penetrate a mundane disguise, but it can negate the magical component of a magically enhanced one.

Related specifically to the nature of your question, the most common trend to notice something about the wolf/wild animal that isn't really an animal (including in novels) is an unnatural intelligence in the eyes that doesn't belong to a wild animal. (It's worth noting that no normal animal ever has an intelligence score higher than 2 - in fact, the text of the animal type specifically states that no creature with an intelligence 3 or higher can be an animal).
Traits

An animal possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal).
Low-light vision.
Alignment: Always neutral.
Treasure: None.
Proficient with its natural weapons only. A noncombative herbivore uses its natural weapons as a secondary attack. Such attacks are made with a -5 penalty on the creature’s attack rolls, and the animal receives only ½ its Strength modifier as a damage adjustment.
Proficient with no armor unless trained for war.
Animals eat, sleep, and breathe.
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Dreams
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Re: Examine breaks through disguises in polymorph

Post by Dreams » Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:23 pm

What Wish has said makes sense for a wizard casting a Polymorph/Shapechange spell, but not so much for say a Druid or a Shifter. You could potentially use Animal Empathy in place of bluff to resolve the check, representing their incredible knowledge about the way these animals behave?

I don't know, it just seems rediculous to say that a Druid devoted to a particular totem, who is with such a connection with nature that they can actually cast magic and become an animal, would be spotted immediately by anyone and known to not be an animal. My point earlier with the Raven is that the player spotting seems to be adding information to the story somehow.

It feels like metagaming to say, 'Hey that Raven sitting in that tree doing nothing over there is acting funny! Maybe it's listening to us!'

'Hah, no Steve, you're just a paranoid Manatee and it's just another bird.'

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Lorkas
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Re: Examine breaks through disguises in polymorph

Post by Lorkas » Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:41 am

If you're talking about a totem druid though, just imagine the next line in your dialogue:
It feels like metagaming to say, 'Hey that Raven sitting in that tree doing nothing over there is acting funny! Maybe it's listening to us!'

'Hah, no Steve, you're just a paranoid Manatee and it's just another bird.'
'I don't know, Lars--it's about four times larger than any other raven I've ever seen.'

Totem druid is a bit of an odd example of something that should not be stand-out obvious as not being a real animal. They aren't really experts in blending in as a natural-looking specimen of their totem animal, but rather transforming into a spirit-beast of immense strength, dexterity, and constitution.

I'd be far more inclined to play not noticing a lower-level totem raven or a non-totem in wildshape, but higher level totems are not exactly understated in their appearance.

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BegoneThoth
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Re: Examine breaks through disguises in polymorph

Post by BegoneThoth » Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:08 am

Lorkas wrote: 'I don't know, Lars--it's about four times larger than any other raven I've ever see
Dire raven.
\

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Lorkas
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Re: Examine breaks through disguises in polymorph

Post by Lorkas » Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:11 am

The dire template would raise a raven from tiny to small, not to the size represented in game for a high level totem raven.

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Dreams
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Re: Examine breaks through disguises in polymorph

Post by Dreams » Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:19 am

So what happens to shifters? Forced to take bluff now, or else anyone can 'Hey that <insert multitude of random shapes> doesn't look right!'

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Lorkas
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Re: Examine breaks through disguises in polymorph

Post by Lorkas » Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:27 am

Frankly it should have always been so. Pretending to be something you aren't is more than just being shaped correctly.

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Re: Examine breaks through disguises in polymorph

Post by Iceborn » Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:55 am

If we had to have a stance for polymorphs and disguise, this is a good one.
This is what bluff is for.
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Nitro
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Re: Examine breaks through disguises in polymorph

Post by Nitro » Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:55 am

That pretty much forces them to pick Assassin, Harper, Rogue or Bard for their 3rd class though, meaning they shaft themselves in combat with the inability to pick monk or a full BAB class.

Gods_Kill_People
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Re: Examine breaks through disguises in polymorph

Post by Gods_Kill_People » Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:31 pm

Or actually accept that they are not Masters of Disguise just because they can take the form of an animal?

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Re: Examine breaks through disguises in polymorph

Post by Lorkas » Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:56 pm

Right, it's a build choice they can make, just like every other class (except bards, who get disguises as a freebie if they take perform for bard song). They should get a bonus to disguise for being polymorph though.

They could also choose to cross class it. Especially if they get a bonus while shifted, cross class ranks and maybe a skill focus would be enough to fool most people most of the time.

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Re: Examine breaks through disguises in polymorph

Post by Gods_Kill_People » Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:58 pm

Sure, I could easily agree with that

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Dreams
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Re: Examine breaks through disguises in polymorph

Post by Dreams » Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:17 pm

Gods_Kill_People wrote:Or actually accept that they are not Masters of Disguise just because they can take the form of an animal?
NWN Wiki wrote:Shifter
Description: (PRESTIGE CLASS) A shifter has no form they call their own. Instead, they clothe themselves in whatever shape is most expedient at the time. While others base their identities largely on their external forms, the shifter actually comes closer to their true self through all of their transformations. Of necessity, their sense of self is based not on their outward form, but on their soul, which is truly the only constant about them. It is the inner strength of that soul that enables them to take on any shape and remain themselves within.
Seems like a master of disguise to me.

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Re: Examine breaks through disguises in polymorph

Post by Gods_Kill_People » Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:50 pm

Thats not a master of disguise, thats literally just being able to take a form, doesn't mean they can bluff their way out of a paper bag.

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Re: Examine breaks through disguises in polymorph

Post by Nitro » Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:20 pm

Lorkas wrote:Right, it's a build choice they can make, just like every other class (except bards, who get disguises as a freebie if they take perform for bard song). They should get a bonus to disguise for being polymorph though.

They could also choose to cross class it. Especially if they get a bonus while shifted, cross class ranks and maybe a skill focus would be enough to fool most people most of the time.
It's an exceptionally shitty choice for shifter though, as an already subpar class you basically hamstring yourself in combat, just to get some skills, or you can be halfway decent in combat but get your disguise broken by everyone and their mother. If they did get some +bluff boost while polymorphed it would help a lot, to make up for the loss from not being able to merge gear.

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Re: Examine breaks through disguises in polymorph

Post by Nemain » Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:50 pm

How about, for the very many animal forms... Letting Animal Empathy work just as Bluff and Perform would? Druid+Shifter skill, meaning they can get their third class accordingly. Also makes sense that if you're shaped into, say, a wolf (druid shape, I know, but whatever) and can trot through the forest unmolested by other wolves, sometimes even convincing another to come with you to hunt something...

That doesn't sound like a Master of Disguise, no, but like a very convincing wolf? Yep.

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Re: Examine breaks through disguises in polymorph

Post by yellowcateyes » Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:12 pm

The following changes will be in effect in the near future:
  • Polymorphed individuals will get a +10 bonus to disguise checks,
  • Except when the onlooker has Truesight active. In those situations, it is the onlooker that gets a +10 bonus to piercing the disguise.
The Truesight spell will only affect disguise checks involving polymorph abilities. The spell will have no effect in piercing mundane disguises.
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Dreams
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Re: Examine breaks through disguises in polymorph

Post by Dreams » Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:59 am

Do you mean someone with True Seeing will have a +10 on their check against the polymorphed character who still has their +10, effectively making it just a base check? Or do you mean the polymorphed character is at -10 whilst the True Seeing character is at +10?

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Re: Examine breaks through disguises in polymorph

Post by yellowcateyes » Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:29 am

The +10 bonus to disguise checks from polymorph does not apply when the onlooker has Truesight. Instead, the onlooker has a +10 bonus.
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Re: Examine breaks through disguises in polymorph

Post by Lorkas » Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:24 am

Part 1 of my suggestion is implemented. Now I'm waiting for part 2 :D

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Dreams
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Re: Examine breaks through disguises in polymorph

Post by Dreams » Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:44 am

yellowcateyes wrote:The +10 bonus to disguise checks from polymorph does not apply when the onlooker has Truesight. Instead, the onlooker has a +10 bonus.
Then True Seeing is giving a 20 effective bonus in total to the onlooker?

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Re: Examine breaks through disguises in polymorph

Post by Iceborn » Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:50 am

Dreams wrote:
yellowcateyes wrote:The +10 bonus to disguise checks from polymorph does not apply when the onlooker has Truesight. Instead, the onlooker has a +10 bonus.
Then True Seeing is giving a 20 effective bonus in total to the onlooker?
xD?

The bonus +10 to bluff is negated if you have True Seeing, that's what they mean.
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